Poland’s Hidden Religious Diversity
The 95 Percent
When asked what it means to be Polish, most people will agree that being Catholic is a defining characteristic. It seems that Poland has replaced France as the first daughter of the Church in the modern eye. But this seemingly universally accepted fact isn’t as straightforward as it appears.
The official Polish government website, Poland.gov.pl, confirms that 95 percent of Poles are Catholic, but this does not mean Roman Catholic. Three other churches in communion with Rome are included in this category. That 95 percent includes members of the Byzantine-Ukrainian, Neo-Uniate, Armenian, and Roman Catholic churches. According to official figures, only 65 percent of Poles are Roman Catholic.
A Modern Construct
The recent canonization of Pope John Paul II seemed to confirm the strong identification of Polish nationalism with the Catholic Church. Papal flags flew alongside Polish flags, as the canonization was closely followed by the three-day secular celebrations of May 1–3: May Day, Flag Day and Constitution Day. John Paul II continues to be celebrated for his participation in the undermining of the Communist regime as much as for simply being Polish, which tends to mask the fact that the Catholic Polish identity is a recent construct.
The Polish nation was officially recognized in 966 with the baptism of Mieszko I. It is a small imaginative step from there to conclude that, from that time on, Poland has been a Catholic country. In fact, Poland was never very seriously Catholic until the modern era.
According to Tomasz Kalisz, a leading Protestant scholar in Poland, this is the first time in the history of Poland that its population and its religion have been almost homogeneous. Any serious student of Polish history will find that, from the beginning, religious affiliation often depended on where in Poland one was standing.
Prior to the 18th-century Partitions of Poland, the religious landscape was complex and scattered. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth counted large numbers of Uniates (Greek Catholics of the Slavonic Rite), Russian Orthodox, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims among its population. There were even pagans, with traditions such as harvest festivals, known in Polish as dożynki, that continue to this day.
The 15th and 16th centuries in Poland were times of great religious and cultural diversity and tolerance. There were laws to ensure religious freedom, in stark contrast with Poland’s neighbours and much of the rest of Europe. Of the many reasons for this tolerance, one of the most significant was the fact that the nobility (szlachta) determined the laws of the country and were themselves a diverse group comprising 20 percent of the population.
Poland’s kings were elected by the nobility and many of those were not Polish – Henry Valois, Poland’s first elected king, and Stanislaus I were French, Wadysław Vasa and Sigismund III were Swedish and Augustus II and III were both Saxons. Also, Stanisław I and Augustus III both came from Protestant families. While the wars of the Reformation raged in the rest of Europe, Poland remained relatively conflict free. There were incidents that marred the peace but, as it is with human memory, the many years of tolerance and religious harmony are forgotten while the few gross tragedies are remembered.
The 17th and 18th centuries saw the rise of intolerance in Poland, but often as a problem within individual faiths. A divide existed among the Orthodox churches (in the mid-1300’s they represented 40 percent of the population). There were constant quarrels over doctrine, with the Russian Orthodox accusing the Greek Orthodox Confession of the Slavonic Rite of being traitors.
The Protestants experienced similar struggles, especially with the rise of Calvinism among the nobility. The Calvinists were plagued by divisions on questions of doctrine and discipline and, at the same time, were a major force behind the 1573 Confederation of Warsaw, which ensured freedom from religious persecution. Jews and Catholics at times fought with individual sects within the confines of their own faiths. Externally, great tragedies did occur between faiths and at times resulted in the loss of life but overall, and compared to what was happening outside the borders of Poland, the country remained more a haven to persecuted religions than a den of discontent.
Poland was so well known as a place of religious freedom that many different religious groups sought protection within its borders over the centuries. Jews fled here from persecution elsewhere on the continent, as did the Czech Brethren, Muslims, Armenians, Protestants from England, and Catholics from Scotland.
The partitions of Poland had the effect of imposing three different official religious identities on the Polish people. Orthodoxy prevailed in the Russian east, the Prussia west was Protestant, and to the south the Habsburg Empire had a decidedly Catholic identity. Strangely, however, this did not spread to the population. Most retained their religious identities regardless of border changes.
It was the 20th century that brought a great shift in the religious identity of the Poles. Several factors transformed the Polish lands from a multicultural, multi-religious conglomeration into a near-homogenous nation. Tensions between religions existed prior to World War II, but it was the overwhelming tragedies that occurred on Polish soil during the war years that savagely diminished diversity.
The huge shift in Poland’s borders following the end of World War II also brought a shift in demographics. In the west, large chunks of Germany were added to Poland’s territory. In the east, Poland lost close to 50 percent of its pre-1939 territories to the Soviet Union. Millions of Poles were uprooted from the east and relocated to the west or elsewhere in central Poland.
The post-war Communist regime, imposed on a largely unwilling population, officially accepted cultural diversity, but in reality a very different story unfolded. The Catholic Church suffered greatly from actions that made affiliation with the Church illegal and closed religious schools and orphanages. The Polish Orthodox Church was placed under the control of the Russian Orthodox. These bullying impositions seem to have spurred Poles to rally round the Catholic Church as a point of common defiance. These reasons, war, resettlement, and Communism, as well as other political and social factors, resulted in a country that became almost universally bound to a Catholic identity.
A New Diversity
According to Zbigniew Pasek, professor of religious studies at Krakow’s AGH University, the scene has shifted again in the last 25 years. As the Soviet grip fell away and the fresh waters of commerce flowed in from the West, Poland’s identity has begun to change. Krakow today has a flourishing religious life and is now home to many churches, such as United Pentecostals, Baptists, Methodists, 7th Day Adventist’s, the Polish National Church, Islam, the Krishna Awareness Society as well as Buddhists. There is also a resurgence of the Jewish faith centred on the Jewish Community Centre active in Kazimierz.
Walking through the streets of Krakow, one can find an Orthodox Church on ul. Szpitalna, a Lutheran Church on ul. Grodzka, a 7th Day Adventist’s church on ul. Lubelska, an Islamic Centre on ul. Sobieskiego, and active Jewish worship in Kazimierz’s historic synagogues. On the Planty it is not unusual to find a friendly pair of Mormon missionaries, who will be happy to speak to you in Polish or English, or Pentecostal Evangelicals handing out fliers and equally eager to talk about their beliefs. Many English speakers are also familiar with the Jehovah’s Witness group that invites English speakers to their regular meetings.
Interfaith life here in Krakow is also blossoming. There are many open lectures on interfaith beliefs and relations as well as cooperation between churches. Each January, local Christian churches meet for a week of prayer for Christian Unity. During May, the Lutheran Church on ul. Grodzka street will hold a Bible marathon in which Protestant and Catholics alike will participate, as well as anyone else who might be interested. They have also held a Christian women’s interdenominational group that has met for the past three years for a World Day of Prayer.
Krakow is teaming with missionaries from all over the world and the flavour of the religious scene continues to change. One of the challenges to all churches is what is being called the secularization of youth. More and more people are falling away from particular denominations and following their own spiritual path or none at all. This is seen in almost all churches, but most evident in the drop in active participation of Catholics in their local parishes. However, this may simply reflect the well-known symbol of the two headed Polish Eagle – with one head looking back to the days when Poles lived among each other peacefully in tolerance and the other to a future Poland that re-embraces ethnic and religious differences.
Poland’s religion is either that of the Old Polish Gods or, out of historical necessity, Catholic or Lutheran. Poles do not look forward to foreigners coming in and settling their country with their own faiths. The two headed mutant eagle was never a Polish symbol – it was Russian and German Prussian – learn your history before you spout off nonsense.
The “tolerant” period was known as hell for the peasantry (you can google for whom it was described as a “heaven”). Take your tolerance Sydney and stick it where the Sun don’t shine.
Perhaps Krakow can send the teeming missionaries to Saudi Arabia or Israel – see how they fare there. As someone said, take your Popperistic Soros funded drivel out of Poland.
P.S. Greetings and Congratulations to the Front Nationale for their amazing victory! Keep up the good work guys!
Your lack of civility reflects your true character.
Making uninformed assumptions and vicious attacks has no place on this forum.
Rather than engage in a civil discussion you rant and rave.
BTW Sydney is a Polish citizen and her family goes back many generations (both maternal and paternal).
Huh? I am not sure where the other commenter was “uncivil” or “vicious” unless we are using different dictionaries? Nor is it clear to me what “uninformed assumptions” you are talking about? Further, it is entirely not clear to me who you are to decide what does or does not belong “on this forum”?
Further, not clear why/how Sydney’s heritage is being brought into this? Except by you?
Or are you just trolling?
That’s exactly right, whether or not he existed, right before he croaked he yelled “Marek, I die for YOU” – the surrounding public was a bit confused (seeing as you hadn’t been born yet) ascribing this (we now know) prescient outburst to Joshua’s spiking fever.
Good article, Sydney. Arno (above) does actually have a point about the eagle – but that’s about the only valid point he makes.
There was a hint in the article about what happened during the war years. In fact, a German commentator recently said (commenting on the series ‘Generation War’) that Poland was a ‘deeply Catholic country’ which would explain peoples’ alleged anti-Semitism. This person seemed to miss the irony of the fact that the country became much more Catholic than ever before but only because the German Nazis wiped out virtually the entire Jewish population of Poland.’
A far more interesting (or at least less talked about) question is what happened to the population prior to war such that there were so many German fifth columnists, Jewish sectarians, Eastern Orthodox believers, Uniates, etc in one country and what that meant for the stability of the state. The recent riots in London, Paris or Malmo would indicate that perhaps stability is lowered rather than increased by introducing foreign elements into the country. This may seem shocking to some but to others it is just common sense.
As far as the comments of the Germans, they are (or should be, given Germany’s role in all of this) irrelevant but I think you are overinterpreting them – the point he was obviously trying to make was that Poles are Catholics and Catholicism was imbued with anti-semitism which is partly true, of course. On the other hand, the question becomes as compared to what? The Lutheran view of Jews? see the writings of Herr Luther and shiver (he like so many beginning philosemites (including in the PAN these days it seems) ended up frustrated and angry when he realized that Jewish antipathy to the Church did not mean an embrace of his new faith – scorned lovers are always a problem. Moreover, to see a role of Catholic anti-semitism in what happened in WWII requires us to run a counterfactual scenario with just the religion/culture of the observers and victims flipped – were the Poles 10% of the population and were similarly targeted what would the Jewish majority have done? Maybe the outcome would have been different but I doubt it
I’ve tried, but I don’t actually understand most of what you’ve written, except for the bit where you say “stability is lowered” by the introduction of foreign elements, and produce as evidence various riots. Here’s an example of a riot which had nothing to do with foreigners: the British Corn Law Riots of 1815. People riot for lots of reasons.
And I think you may have missed the point I was making about the (rather smug) commentator who put the cart before the horse in his claim that It was hardly surprising if a predominantly Catholic country should include anti-Semites. When the Nazis invaded in 1939, Poland was still very diverse, as the above article explains. It was mainly the genocidal policies of the Nazis plus the Stalinist population shifts (and decimation) which created the predominantly Catholic landscape of the post- war years.
I think I’ve said that “you may be eaten by hungry alligators so don’t let alligators into your house”.
To which you replied, “yes, but your house may already contain a rabid dog”.
True, but hardly responsive, don’t you think?
In other words, “yes, people riot for lots of reasons” but why would you introduce a population which is more likely to riot? (This puttting aside that the riot you brought up was in the UK 200 years ago – this reminds me of people who say “but Christians also were fanatics” – true, 500 years ago).
More recent riots then: the UK miners’ strike, the print workers vs Murdoch at Wapping, the 1968 student riots in France, the riots in Gdansk and elsewhere in Poland in the seventies – none of them anything to do with foreigners. Your claim that foreigners are more likely to cause riots is pretty shaky, to put it mildly. Are the English and the Scots provoking any rioting in Krakow right now?
Don’t be coy re: English & Scots. We are talking about those that are unable or unwilling to assimilate. Even the allegedly assimilated ones often have a hard time fitting in – DC Bendit & Krivine of your French riots have MEastern ancestry
Many of the other strikes you mention were in the context of the COld war – although even today foreign powers are likely to try to exploit social divisions to weaken a country. See for example the so-called Silesian miniority movement which is, likely, financed from abroad (and not necessarily just Germany).
You’re the one talking about “those unable to assimilate”, not me. Why don’t you spell out exactly who you mean? Talk about coyness.
Let me ask you a question – since your true colours seem to be showing through a bit more with each comment – despite your suave exterior, aren’t you perhaps just a good old-fashioned xenophobe, and in particular, someone who is inclined to judge people less positively if they happen to be non-European?
I judge the type of people that are likely to be the best fit for my country. If my country were Japan, I’d be trying to reduce Korean, Chinese and Thai immigration. But it’s not. More specifically, I prefer people that come to my country to be likely to produce offspring that looks like me, that has a similar religious and cultural background to mine. That’s what’s called survival of the tribes my friend.
In the first instance that means Poles from abroad, thereafter, Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks, northern Croats, Slovenes and Russians (in each case from wherever in the world). Therefter you can bring in Western Europeans. In all these cases if they are willing to assimilate.
I do not deny anyone the right to pursue the same in their own country. But I do deny you the ability to come in here and decide how my country and house should be run.
PS Just because other countries increasingly look like bordellos does not mean ours should.
Does that answer your question my good old fashioned Pole-hater?
BTW if someone comes into MY country and decides that they would like to pray to mohammed or yahwe and to raise their own in the same belief, that is what, under any definition, I would call unwillingness to assimilate.
My country – my rules my non-suave bud
“I’ve tried, but I don’t actually understand most of what you’ve written”
yes, well, that would have been a good time to quite while (as) ahead (as it was possible).
Please be specific. The Germans under Nazi rule invaded Poland and wiped out Polish Jewry. Polish anti-Semitism is matched by Jewish anti-Polonism. Personally, I prefer to talk about the philo’s on both sides.
I meant “quit”. And, again, to your original post, the writer was suggesting that Poles, on average, were prejudiced against Jews partly because of Catholic dogma – while Germans have made Poland “more Catholic” that clearly was not yet the case during the time in question.
Bit defensive, aren’t you, MB? I have to admit it was a bit difficult following your alligators and rabid dogs, but I think I can see fairly clearly now where you stand.
But you’re still missing the point about the German commentator. Let me put it this way: 1930’s Poland, not perfect by any means, but people of different religions and ethnic background co-exist, mostly peacefully, sometimes not so peacefully. 1939, Nazi Germany invades and in the next six years, just about the entire Jewish population is annihilated. Therefore the Nazis have transformed Poland into a mainly Catholic country.
I have no doubt that you know your Polish history. Was there anything wrong with Polish citizens of different religions getting along in harmony in the days of the Commonwealth?
You will probably also know that Polish Jews felt more secure during the days of Pilsudski and less so under the following Sanacja regime. Would you therefore call the old Marszalek a Pole-hater simply because he wasn’t anti-Jewish?
Go back to your alligators and repeat a hundred times: “I must try harder not to be rude to people on the internet.”
First of all, you do not get to make accusations and then claim that someone is “defensive”. What does that mean? Are you saying that Poles should lie down and just take it?
“You will probably also know that Polish Jews felt more secure during the days of Pilsudski and less so under the following Sanacja regime. Would you therefore call the old Marszalek a Pole-hater simply because he wasn’t anti-Jewish?”
I am not following the logic (if any) here. Please show me where I defined someone who is not a Pole-hater as necessarily “anti-Jewish”? (whatever that means). Moreover, your writing is not a-pro-pos. We are not debating what should happen to the Poland of the 30s but of today.
Nor is it clear to me how the level of security of any non-Pole should be a barometer (except tangentially) for any Pole or for Poland generally as to its national development. Obviously, for “non-Poles” their level of “security” would be enhanced the most (relative to dangers posed by Poles) if the Poles simply did not exist. Are you advocating exterminating Poles? Just want to know where you stand, ya know.
“Was there anything wrong with Polish citizens of different religions getting along in harmony in the days of the Commonwealth?”
Again, not a pro-pos. As for the harmony of the Polish Commonwealth you should read about the way peasants were oppressed in that Commonwealth, the way the German settlers were allowed in and allowed to continue their “customs”, the way the native Poles were discriminated in the subsequently Germanized towns all over Silesia, Pomerania and elsewhere, etc. Have you read about the Khmelnytsku (sp?) uprising? Was that also an expression of harmony or just an exception that proves the rule? Now, do you think that the Jews living in the Ukraine at the time would have claimed that they benefitted from the local diversity? How about the Germans in Torun in the 1700s? How about the Ukrainians (or Poles) living under the Szlachta? What exactly are we celebrating here? The fact that these people didn’t slaughter each other EVERY day?
I also feel that you are being unnecessarily argumentative in denying the obvious. Do you think that Germany would be more or less stable if half of it were German and half Turkish? Given the way Turkey has consistently behaved relative to its Greek minority, I think that at least the Turks know the answer. You can apply the same to every country – India, South Africa, Yugoslavia, Rwanda, etc. Anytime multiple ethnic groups become competitors in politics bad things happen. The only way that that can be averted is when one group is so entirely marginalized that it has no voice or by people intermarrying and giving up their “Tradition”. That is what is being sold to the Poles right now (and other Europeans). Except, of course, no one is trying to sell the same to Chinese or Arabs – and Poles and others know that full well.
What did I accuse you of, Max? I asked if you were perhaps a xenophobe on the basis of your pronouncements about minorities who were unwilling to assimilate. You were free to answer that you weren’t and to demonstrate that somehow. Instead you continue to try to prove that the foreigners who do not try to assimilate pose some sort of threat to social stability. The first rule when in a hole, is to stop digging.
And if there are any accusations flying around, then your unwarranted and slanderous jibe about my being a ‘Pole-hater’ needs some explaining. Just because I don’t buy into your isolationist world-view doesn’t make me a Pole-hater and I would appreciate an apology.
Also, what is so ‘obvious ‘ that I’m denying? Explain please, without resorting to alligators and rabid dogs.
Also, would you like to specify precisely which countries are ‘beginning to look like bordellos’?
Also, if peasants were oppressed in the past, it was nothing to do with religion. Neither was the Chmielnicki uprising anything to do with religion (as you will know if you’ve read your Sienkiewicz). The above article made the point that incidents of violence and discord tend to overshadow the long years of relative harmony.
Also, if you don’t like my argumentative tone, then you shouldn’t set yourself up as a judgemental pundit on a forum such as this. Be seeing you.
Anyone who argues for increased immigration of, particularly of non-European peoples, into Poland is a Pole hater – end of story.
It is you who should explain himself – if you are not of the Polish nation, please go comment somewhere else on a portal better suited for your people.
Since everyone seems to be using wacky names, I thought I’d join in. Just to say to Elvis, that although the Chmielnitsky Uprising was not primarily about religion, still there was a religious element to it, inasmuch as the Cossacks felt that they were defending their Orthodox Faith against the largely Catholic Polish magnates, but I believe that the reason that they turned against the Jews was because the Jews were seen as supportive of the Polish nobility, and not because of their religion as such, so in that sense Evlis is right and the uprising was not mainly about religion.
Incidentally, I wonder if Max Bobrowski is aware of a namesake who was an SS officer at Mauthausen?
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Bobrowski
To the moderator at the Krakow Post:
please disregard my previous comment and this one. I don’t know if it’s such a good idea to get into a slanging match with Bobrowski. Also there are people out there who are genuinely called Max Bobrowski who may not want to be associated with the SS officer mentioned above. And apart from that, Genghis Khan may not be everyone’s favourite character either.
Hope I’m not confusing you. I’m glad to see, though, that you’ve introduced comment moderation. It gives hotheads like me pause for thought. Best wishes.
“You were free to answer that you weren’t and to demonstrate that somehow.”
LOL – as if I had anything to prove to you – it will be a cold day in hell before Poles will work to justify themselves in the eyes of foreigners for defending their Homeland.
So – still no apology, MB? You’re still intent on digging that hole. Where exactly have I advocated immigration into Poland, let alone encouraged immigrants to remain “unassimilated”? You’re making a lot of assumptions, not least about my own person. “Not of the Polish nation”? What are you trying to say, Max? That I may be an Arab or a Jew or a Turk or a Somali? I happen to be none of the above.
Here’s another question for you: which of the following two people is the greater Polish patriot – Wojciech Jaruzelski or Jan Maria Hescheles (better known as Marian Hemar – look him up on Wiki if you haven’t heard of him)? I know which one I would choose and it wouldn’t be the one wearing the shades.
The only point on which I would agree with you is on the question of assimilation. Those immigrants who do assimilate usually do so to their own advantage. This was proved under tragic circumstances where Polish Jews who were assimilated stood a better chance of surviving the Nazi terror than those who weren’t (and some of the latter didn’t even speak Polish).
But it sounds as if you would like to keep Poland for the Polish, or at least for white Europeans. Am I wrong? But just how assimilated are the English, Scots and Irish in Krakow? I imagine most of them can order two beers and fish and chips in Polish but how many can read Polish Newsweek? Wouldn’t they fit your category of “unassimilated foreigners”? I put it to you, MB, that your politics are medievalist and you might have been happier in the Spain of the Inquisition than in the Poland of the 21st century.
I’m afraid this will be the last communication from me, although you may feel free to apologise for calling me a ‘Pole-hater’ anytime you like. I would say it’s been a pleasure but unfortunately it hasn’t. I find you mostly uncouth, quite offensive at times and generally a crashing bore. You will doubtlessly not be satisfied unless you have the last word in this discussion but, as far as I’m concerned, it will be the hollow sound of someone trapped in a deep pit which they have managed to dig for themselves. Au revoir.
“Those immigrants who do assimilate usually do so to their own advantage.”
As I wrote already, non-Slavs are extremely difficult to assimilate (meaning, to be clear, to share our blood) – some of the East Germans (being unknowing Slavs themselves) may be allowed to assimilate. That is what I mean by “unable” to assimilate. To state the patently obvious (since it seems I must), I can love jazz, rap, gospel music, callypso and have likeness of James Baldwin tattooed on my forehead and Mandela on my nipple – all that won’t make me black. It might make me a africo-phile (?) but that’s it. The right to assimilate – admit other blood with the tribe – is not something that is within the control of any obcy. A willingness won’t make it so. Of course, the children of obcy and Poles are Polish 100% – Bozhe Prawa are clear on this because even an ounce of Polishness ennobles a soul and blossoms immediately to full Polishness (at times unknowing).
To your obcy-centric point: you agree on what? That, from the perspective of obcy it is better to assimilate or pass for Poles because Poles are more likely to help people who at least try (a worthy undertaking as inadequate and futile as their efforts may be) to act Polish? That is no doubt right but you once again exhibit a obcy-centric perspective. You reason that doing this is better for the obcy! Therefore, they should try to assimilate. By that reasoning if Poland were run by some other obcy group – Germans or Swedes – the obcy ought to now jump ship and learn German or Swedish. So you profess assimilation out of convenience and opportunity for the obcy – but nothing else – nice.
To restate, who joins our community is our decision and right and each time, the question has to be is this good for our People (not, as you would have it, is it good for the obcy).
Dear Elvis –
I don’t see an “I’m sorry” anywhere in your message (and I’ve looked twice now). If you do not express contrition for your vicious, virulent, biological anti-Polonism where should we go to next then? (BTW by “anti-Polonism” I mean only “a dislike or hatred for those of the Polish blood, i.e., our tribe”). Does it amuse you to be digging that hole but thinking that, contrary to reality, up is down and down is up? If it makes you feel better about your situation, have at it. I am not going to answer your inane questions since you already think you know the answers anyway. Do not be so certain as to your assumptions – we may be in the 21st century but that’s just a number running from the (alleged) birth of some nutcase in the Middle East – nothing has changed and the battle for Poland (and more importantly for Poles) is just beginning. Not sure what your beef in this is but there are some people who feel they can stick their noses in just about anything that is not their business (or perhaps they feel, B-g help us, that everything is). Those kinds of excursions tend to end poorly so you may want to reflect on your history.
“Not of the Polish nation”? What are you trying to say, Max? That I may be an Arab or a Jew or a Turk or a Somali? I happen to be none of the above.”
Your response (or attempt at it) is precisely the issue. I said nothing more or less than what I said – I do not care which one of the above listed categories (is that what they are?) you are or not – they all look the same to me – they are all non-Poles or “obcy”. How the obcy divide themselves, what they believe, who they worship is irrelevant to Poles – so long as they do not try to harm Poles.
Using insulting (or at least intended as such) adjectives like “medievalist” (medieval really), “uncouth”, “offensive” (I get it, what you are saying is “me no like”) etc, is merely an attempt to hide a lack of intellect in a mask of eloquence – no logic is present and, so, this attempt, like the rest of your droning drivelish discourse, also ultimately has to, and does, utterly fail.
Feel free to run away and hide – I only hope that you will use that time for some introspection and self-assessment – if you want to come back later and appropriately express sorrow I may deign to entertain it but the initiative to alter your couse has to come from you – I cannot help you there.
Elvis has left the building, Max.
I’ve been reading your posts. Are you quite sure you’re Polish? Shouldn’t you be spelling your name with a ‘ks’ instead of a ‘x’? And wouldn’t you know how to spell ‘Chmielnicki’? Just checking….
@ Senator Blutarsky:
Bluto – check out the KP article of May 20th about Poland’s New Immigration Laws. Guess who’s posting comments over there? None other than Maximilian Bobrowski aka Arno Ciemezny aka Anatol Karp aka Avi Ben Yudah aka Dawid Smoginsky aka probably one or two others further back. This guy is one serious pretzel-twister.
BTW- how’s your German? Ich denke er ist überhaupt kein Pole, sondern ein provokateur aus einem Raumschiff.
Wow. I see what you mean. A regular one-man army. And if he leaned any more to the right he’d be horizontal. Who is he going to be next? Maybe Tuco Ramirez?
And I picked up a bit of German on the Faber drinking team – “zwei bier bitte” and “ich bin ein hamburger”.
Good to hear from you Otter old buddy
I think he is also Hans Grupcheck. He has become very quiet lately, don’t you think? Maybe he has run out of interesting names for himself?
See you at the Faber reunion, Bluto.
Elvis, if you’re still out there. You were wasting your time by arguing with him (whoever he is). Your definition of assimilation is different from his. According to him, Jews who have been living in Poland for centuries still do not count as Poles. This man (I assume he is male) is worse than a provocateur. He gives Polish people a bad name. Maybe that is his main purpose. Regards from O von der V
Here’s the link to the other article I was talking about if anyone is interested:
http://www.krakowpost.com/article/8046
Otter: are Arabs who have been living in “Palestine” for “hundreds of years” now Jews? Just want to understand the logic.
(BTW I don’t expect an answer because that would require an ability to process what another’s writing)
Hey! I may be ugly but I ain’t no stinking troll.
Don’t shoot! It ain’t me – honest! I bet he don’t even speak Polish. Nie dajcie sie prowokowac takiemu. To najgorszy typ pasorzyta. Google the definition of ‘troll’ – it fits him like a glove.
“he don’t even speak Polish”
Hmmmm… At least he clearly DOES speak English.
Are you “Elvis”s attorney? Are you here to make more obvious observations like Elvis’ (e.g.,there are treasonous Poles but also Righteous obcy – see the Jaruzelski example he raises – wow we are shocked – any more truisms you are willing to share Elvis?).
ps shouldn’t you be respecting the terms of your double secret probation Blutarsky?
one more thing: you and Elvis miss the one (and only) point I am trying to make:
It does not matter how I spell my name. It does not matter whether I know how to spell Chmielnicki, it does not matter whether I was a Soviet stooge, it does not matter whether I speak Polish or write poetry in Polish or am aware of having Polish ancestors. It does not matter whether I collaborated with the Germans or Soviets or fought bravely against them. It does not matter whether I am a “good” person or a “bad” person – it does not matter whether my name is Dzerzhynski or Jaruzelski or, for that matter, Merkel – we are not debating the morality of anything here – in the narrow question of who is a Pole, the only thing that matters is blood, i.e., parentage.
So, Pilecki (good) and Dzierzynski (bad) are Poles but Elvis’ Hemar (good) or Brus (bad) are not.
You may have friends outside of your family, you may even like them much better than your family members but they are not (whatever else they may be) your family.
What a pile of bat guano
Correction – you were right that Pilecki and Hemar were both good guys but that’s it. All the rest is a huge pile of bat guano.
@ Tuco Ramirez
I agree with you about his comments but mind your language because you notice on the other article they have redacted some of his posts. (Although for some reason they left a nasty description about Germans).
Hey man what do you think I’m doing? My language coulda been much worse but I know the people at the Krakow Post are very sensitive. Let’s not damage our alliance coz that’s just the kind of thing he feeds on. Even if he doesn’t come back I bet he’s already managed to put a lot of decent people off of posting comments here.
Sorry, Tuco. Yes, let’s not fall out. I notice that a certain Anatol Karp posted a lot of unpleasant comments on the article about the ZDF series “Generation War” months after the discussion had finished. I wonder if there is a real Anatol Karp and Maximilian Bobrowski etc out there? This might be a kind of identity theft.
Hey guys. If you argue then that only gives him a kick. I checked a few other articles and he’s all over the place. Full of bat-guano is just about right. He’s spoiling it for everyone.
I smelled a rat after the first comment but I didn’t realise just what kind of a pretzel-twister – as somebody called him – we’re dealing with here. I’m sorry I encouraged him by getting into an argument with him. Should have followed my own advice and done “a little less conversation and a little more action”. But what do you do about people like him short of closing down the entire comments section? Reminds me of a problem my nephew has right now with foxes nesting under his garden shed where he keeps his beer supply. He knows they’re there, they come out at night and create havoc, but can he figure out a way to get rid of them? No, sir. Better luck at the Krakow Post. Thangyouverrmuch.
On second thoughts, apologies to all of you real pretzel-twisters out there. You don’t deserve to be compared to this character.
If there’s any apologising needs to be done it should be the troll who needs to apologise to the writer of the above article. I’m willing to bet a fistful of dollars he ain’t even Polish.
Elvis, Bluto and the other one- there’s only one way of dealing with vermin. Remember what I said in ‘The Good the Bad and the Ugly’? “If you gotta shoot, shoot. Don’t talk”. (I’m talking about your nephew’s foxes, of course, Elvis).
Tuco, believe it or not I’m going to have to ask you to apologize. Just been talking to my neff and he says that foxes are not legally classed as “vermin”.
That doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to get rid of them.
And I wouldn’t hold my breath for any apology from the troll.
Elvis I gotta lot of respect for you. You know I saw you when you were down in Acapulco? Yeah man. So I’ll apologize to your nephew. Ok – maybe foxes ain’t vermin. After all they only do what animals do and not out of malice.
Great version of “Guadalajara” in the film, Elvis. Saludos amigo
“I’m afraid this will be the last communication from me … You will doubtlessly not be satisfied unless you have the last word in this discussion but, as far as I’m concerned, it will be the hollow sound … Au revoir.”
So, I see you are not just antipolonic but a liar too.
Do you have anything substantive to say? I assume not since all I see are invectives.
You have reduced the level of conversation here with your name calling (“troll” “bat guano” (afraid to use the word sh*t?), “vermin”) and threats (“shoot”), etc. The level of hate, vitriol and lack of civility is quickly approaching that of the House of “Commons.”
ps I have only posted under my (real) name – which is more than what I can say for you
ps2 you made me laugh “I am not calling for censorship but this kind of stuff should not be displayed”
Real name, eh? How do you explain that all your other alter egos listed by Otter (above) trot out exactly the same line about ‘Polish blood’ and other hateful garbage using the exact same phrases in many cases? You’ve got serious problems, buddy and posting bat guano is a dangerous symptom. You may be Polish, although I doubt it. My best guess is you’re an East German of Polish descent who knows one or two words of Polish. You’re the one with nothing to say except the same old xenophobic tripe about a ‘Polish tribe’. And if you don’t like the abuse you’re getting, then why don’t you disappear and don’t come back.
And I wonder why the KP has put up with your hate speech for so long. Any other forum would have shut you down long ago.
again, you throw out words liek “xenophobic” or “hate” but produce no arguments. “Polish Tribe” is an expression of hate? How mad are you?
“And if you don’t like the abuse you’re getting, then why don’t you disappear and don’t come back.”
I could not care less about your “abuse” – Poles were murdered by the thousands by, to use your words “bat guano”, like you. Do you think that your threats to “shoot” “vermin” upset me? It is what I expect from people like you. I bet you would like to “disappear” me, huh? Same as in Katyn, right?
It is you that seem to be upset about something – you are defensive, insecure and full of hate towards the Polish people – am I right? It’s a rhetorical question (lest you want to answer)
“Hate speech” – can you show me an example of any “hate”?
It’s easy to use ad hominem attacks where there is zero substance. You shame the name Blutarsky.
All you have is empty phrases from some MSZ course you attended.
I do not say this in ill will so please don’t take it as such but you sir are just plain seething stupid.
Again… do you have anything substantive to say?
“I smelled a rat after the first comment but I didn’t realise just what kind of a pretzel-twister ”
Could be a pretzel-twister in your underwear – I would leave the terminal to visit the restroom if I were you
The Krakow Post is far too tolerant with, as someone said already “bat guano” like this. This is not just a “haters going to hate” kind of situation. The views expressed above are incompatible with any normal line of thinking. I am not calling for censorship but this kind of stuff should not be displayed. They have no room in a diverse, progressive, forward thinking Poland. They also probably violate standards of the European Union. They belong in the fascist “Independence March” of 11th of November. I am sorry to say that I have encountered plenty of people in Poland that think that way, however.
See above in ps 2- since you are obviously the same person, I feel I have addressed your comment already
again, you throw out words liek “xenophobic” or “hate” but produce no arguments. “Polish Tribe” is an expression of hate? How mad are you?
“And if you don’t like the abuse you’re getting, then why don’t you disappear and don’t come back.”
I could not care less about your “abuse” – Poles were murdered by the thousands by, to use your words “bat guano”, like you. Do you think that your threats to “shoot” “vermin” upset me? It is what I expect from people like you. I bet you would like to “disappear” me, huh? Same as in Katyn, right?
It is you that seem to be upset about something – you are defensive, insecure and full of hate towards the Polish people – am I right? It’s a rhetorical question (lest you want to answer)
“Hate speech” – can you show me an example of any “hate”?
It’s easy to use ad hominem attacks where there is zero substance. You shame the name Blutarsky.
All you have is empty phrases from some ANTIFA course you attended.
I do not say this in ill will so please don’t take it as such but you sir are just plain seething stupid.
In any event – I am tired of your boring, nonresponsive commentary that read like Pravda editorials. I am leaving now so have at it and go ahead and brag about how you’ve disgusted yet another reader to leave the KP permanently.
Hanbisz Polakow, ty szelmo. ‘Ad hominem’ attacks are too good for you since only a subhuman would come out with your Katyn accusation. Crawl back under your stone and stay there. Good riddance. I hope I never hear your putrid opinions again. In fact I hope the Polish authorities find you and nail you. Have a nice day.
“Subhuman” – excellent! – now you are using the language of your favorite – Professor Bauman. You seem very angry. Were you ever molested by your oficer prowadzacy?
what exactly are “Polish” authorities suposed to “nail” me for? Do you mean physically? Or sexually? Just to be clear so I understand what the standards are in your “democratic” III RP.
Again, you seem like a very, very angry little man.
I am having an excellent day in fact – it seems like you’re not. In the absence of anger management thereapy, I suggest pharmacological assistance!
Is everyone at the Krakow Post asleep? Does not anyone understand the hateful references he makes to Bauman and Katyn? Yes, other comments sections would have blocked this poster a long time ago. Freedom of speech is one thing, but allowing a textbook troll to spout his vitriol is another.
Otter, I’ll tell you the only thing I’m sorry about is that I didn’t call him out after his very first uncouth comment. You were right about wasting time arguing with him – denying that Hemar was Polish, for example, is a bit like denying that President Obama is American (which some people do , of course).
And I didn’t particularly want to bring this up in public, but my own grandfather, who as an officer in the Polish army, was captured by the Soviets and incarcerated in the Gulag, was quite possibly himself shot at Katyn by the NKVD. All my family knows for sure is that he perished in the USSR. So it’s hardly surprising if I don’t have a very high opinion of this abusive creature.
The Krakow Post ought to re-examine its comments policy. At the moment, what it looks like is they’re sitting back and enjoying the entertainment. How about intervening, guys?
PS – if anyone has any ideas about those foxes, then my nephew would appreciate them. Thangyouverrmuch
Actually I don’t think he’s Polish. He talks about “your” Third Republic.
A guy who gets a thrill out of upsetting people on different sites can only be described as a classic troll.
Here’s a prediction for you: Argentina v Brazil in the final. Belgium the team to look out for, though. Cheers. O v d V
You are purposefully (and repeatedly) confusing citizenship with nationality/ethnicity. USPres is obviously American (assuming all the facts about his birth he claims are true) by citizenship. Hemar was Jewish and was a Polish citizen. He was not, however, a Pole.
Why do you want him so desparately to be a Pole?
PS I think trolling is what you do Elvis aka Blutotter aka Tuco aka JBr
Seems you misused the word “catholic”, you confused catholic with Christian. Ortodox are Cristians, not catholic.
You wrote:
«95 percent of Poles are Catholic, but this does not mean Roman Catholic. Three other churches in communion with Rome are included in this category. That 95 percent includes members of the Byzantine-Ukrainian, Neo-Uniate, Armenian, and Roman Catholic churches. According to official figures, only 65 percent of Poles are Roman Catholic.»
WHILE should be:
«95 percent of Poles are Christian, but this does not mean (Roman) Catholic. Three other churches in communion with Rome are included in this category. That 95 percent includes members of the Byzantine-Ukrainian, Neo-Uniate, Armenian, and Roman Catholic churches. According to official figures, only 65 percent of Poles are Roman Catholic.»
“According to official figures, only 65 percent of Poles are Roman Catholic.”
what official figures? according to my official figures 100% of Poles are Roman Catholic.
Newsflash: Fox report (and I’m not talking about ol’ Rupe’s TV station)
The nephew tried just about every humane fox repellent under the sun but no joy. What finally seems to have worked is leaving a 24 hour talk radio station on inside the shed. Looks like the sound of constant human voices drives them crazy. Either that, or listening to the news was just too depressing for them.
maybe your nephew should deal with his alcoholic tendencies instead… but hey, jedem das seine
Bist du schon wieder da, Max? Ok- here’s something else for you. Tomorrow (Friday 4th July) is the big match: France v Germany. According to your theory of ‘Polish blood’, Podolski is a Pole. So how come he’s described as a German and what’s he doing playing for the German national team?
The answer is, of course, that everyone can be what he or she chooses to be. I don’t want to be rude to you, Max, even though you have been incredibly rude to others on this page – including the author of the above article – but your tribal theories are meaningless in this day and age. Join the 21st century, Max, and be a Mensch.
Newsflash from the Home Front – apparently your poor Dennis MacShane is being denied books in prison.
“The playwright David Hare said that reading and access to literature “is a right, not a privilege,” and the writer A. L. Kennedy said that books are “a humanizing and creative influence.”
“This is Boko Haram, Grayling style,” … no mental release or privacy for prisoners confined in a dangerous and counterproductive environment.”
Since it is not clear whether Mr. MacShane has attempted to achieve his “mental release” by requesting to bring into prison the less luminar volumes of Western civilization such as the musings of a certain Austrian corporal on the state of his (neighbor’s) nation, we will likely never know whether Ms Kennedy’s assessment of books as being “a humanizing and creative influence” is conditioned on the substance of what is to be read.
Du bist aber recht dumm…
If Joachim Lowe were to put a monkey on the German team, would that make the monkey a German or would it still be a monkey, Otter? Bitte, bitte tell me?
Podolski is a Pole. He has himself said so. His wife is Polish etc. Even Klose is Polish though he doesn’t like to admit it – his choice.
Poles can be citizens of any country.
Just like, say, Jews.
Or Germans.
Or do you not think so? Are the German minority members in Silesia, not German? You should tell them that – they haven’t gotten the message it seems.
BTW: do you think that Copernicus was Polish? If not, why not?
Are you concerned, perhaps, with dual loyalties?
According to the Economist, Poland should brace itself for a huge demographic crisis – it seems you’ve found a solution – all we have to do is nominate a number of stray dogs and cats (I mean, why stop at primates?) “Poles”.
Komorowski and Sikorski can hand out a few passports and, voila, problem solved.
“The answer is, of course, that everyone can be what he or she chooses to be.” That’s awesome. But can I be more than one thing? And can I switch? Can I be German on Tuesdays but Polish on Mondays and Russian on Wednesday? That leaves a few days of the week though… Perhaps I can be Chicano on Thursdays, Tamil on Fridays, on Saturidays, of course, I will be Jewish – perhaps a Maronite. Which leaves Sunday – perhaps I can be a Martian on Sunday.
Even so, should I be limited to this solar system? It is the 21st century, as you say… (BTW that offends me – why are you counting time since the alleged birth of some wacko in Roman Judea?
Oh, I got it – Can I be a Hutt in February of leap years? Or perhaps a Xylon? You like that don’t you…
“and be a Mensch”
i think you are on the wrong website, buddy
Is this the Krakow Post football page? In that case, how wrong could Otter have been about the teams in the final (although there could be a Brazil – Argentina match on Saturday, of course, depending on who goes through Wednesday). Not surprisingly, I’m biased and I’d like to see Holland raise the trophy after coming so close in the past.
As for the poster who would like to claim Podolski and Klose for Poland – isn’t it their choice what they want to be? Would he be equally keen to claim someone like Felix Dzerzhinsky, who may have been of Polish descent but considered himself Russian? And I think Copernicus is a red herring, since the world knows he is Polish and only the odd German thinks otherwise.
Best wishes to all Brazil fans and supporters – better luck next time round.
They can claim to be whatever they want – the point is Poles will always consider them Poles. They are brothers whether they choose to play for a different team or not.
I am not keen to claim Dzerzhynski – but I do not deny that he was Polish. I did not bring up Klose or Podolski – the other poster did. Had he brought up Dzerzhynski (someone else brought up Jaruzelski) I would also have “claimed” him as Polish – warts and all.
Copernicus was Polish if his grandmother was Polish (on the mother’s side). The other part of the family seems to have been German – again, by ethnicity – looking only at “citizenship” obviously Copernicus was Polish as in the subject of the Polish crown throughout his life.
Ok – so I have some egg on my face but I was also half right about the final (Argentina). My apologies to Sydney Sadowski for turning this into a discussion about the World Cup. May the best team win and I hope it doesn’t go to penalties. Looking forward to more articles from you, Sydney.
Newsflash relevant for Tuco: As per the National Interest, Polish Ambasador Sznep thinks that Eli Wallach (born in NYC) was Polish! How wonderful – someone forgot to tell Eli Wallach that but since this revelation waited until after Mr. Wallach passed away, he can’t, of course, be expected to deny it.
It seems rather unwise to engage in this kind of cultural imperialism (or self-redefinition) however. While a post-mortem appropriation of Mr. Wallach, is likely not to cause more than a few raised eyebrows in most quarters, were the ambassador to express a desire for consistency in his thinking and, say, claim that 1.1m Poles died at Auschwitz, we might have an international incident on our hands.
Suggest a minor rebuke from HQ might be necessary.
If the ambassador described the late, great Eli Wallach as Polish, then he clearly made a mistake, since he was American. But you can’t make a simple point without being snide and sarcastic. What’s the matter? Didn’t you get enough of a hammering in the comments above? You back for more, are you?
Hammering? More like whining. In any event, i thought it was curiously a pro pos given your nick and what we’ve been discussing.
I doubt the Ambassador made a mistake. Whatever else he may be (and there are a lot of stories from South America) he does not strike me as stupid. What he seems to be doing is, in line with Mr. Sikorski’s recent diasporic pronouncements, trying to redefine who is in fact Polish to include (paraphrasing) anyone who passed through Polish territories at some point. This attitude is insulting both to those who passed throught that territory and want nothing to do with either the territory or the people they met there) and to real Poles who, it is clear, the Foreign Ministry, sees (much as the former nobility saw peasants) as crazed, uneducated, anti-semitic, ultra-Catholic nutcases (much as the government and its social circle it is a part of sees the rest of Polish society). It is also pathetic in that it grasps at other people’s achievements as its own. While one may view Arthur Rubinstein, Bruno Schultz or Stanislaw Lem as at least culturally Polish if not ethnically, the ridiculousness of calling Eli Wallach Polish – a man born in the US to Jewish parents who fled Eastern Europe at a time where there was not even a territorial Poland should be self-evident. There seems to be a current word for that kind of an attitude in Polish – “obciach”.
But the government looks at its society and doesn’t like what it sees – instead of working with it – it would prefer to change it – much like Polish kings of old who, not happy with the quality of their subjects decided to import Germans, Jews, etc. Both they and the current government simply do not care about Poles – they care (slightly) about their infrastructural project meaning the quality of the administrative region they refer to as Poland – their fiefdom.
Of course, that people whose platitudes are of negritudes should believe that they govern a bunch of primitives is so deliciously ironic that only the inherent pathos of the situation prevents decent human beings from bursting into frenzied laughter.
Artur Rubinstein: great example of a patriotic Pole who happened to be Jewish.
Henryk Szeryng: another example of a patriotic Pole who happened to be Jewish.
Leopold Labedz: another example of a patriotic Pole who happened to be Jewish.
There are many more, including the poet Marian Hemar, already mentioned above.
Your previous assertion that morality is not in question – only blood – is seriously flawed (to put it politely – others have been far less charitable). What is patriotism based on if NOT morality? Your “Polish blood” theory falls apart when faced with people like the ones mentioned above. What about Poles of other backgrounds? General Wladyslaw Anders’s family was originally of German descent and there was scarcely a greater Polish patriot in the last war.
I read an article in the “National Interest” in which Ambassador Schnepf says that Eli Wallach’s parents were Polish. Slightly different from the version you quote. If the parents were Polish Jews, then they can be described as Polish. Why not?
What happens to Poles who are children of mixed marriages – Catholic/Jewish or Protestant/Jewish? Do they suddenly stop being Polish according to your racial theories?
And is there such a thing as pure Polish blood which goes all the way back to Boleslaw Chrobry and your mythical Lech? I very much doubt it.
Reading your comments, it seems apparent that you’re intent on alienating just about all non-Christians, but also the Christians themselves, with your contemptuous comments about the religion’s founder.
PS: “Negritudes”. Do you actually know what you’re talking about ?
You cannot be a pariotic (or any other kind) of POLE if you “happen” to be NONPOLISH. I can’t be a BLACK man if I am a WHITE man or vice versa (Chapelle notwithstanding). I can’t be JAPANESE if I am CHINESE. You claim to have read what I wrote before – I assume thefefore that either you are a complete dolt (albeit one who can write (if not read)) or you know exactly what I mean and these salvos are designed to keep me online. Fine – what I’ve said here I’ve said a million times in public.
i’ve already answered your question of “mixed” children above – to repeat myself, again, there is no such thing – if the person has a Polish parent, he or she is Polish – that’s it.
re: negritudes – if I didn’t know what that meant – would I be able to answer the question your ask? And if not, then why would you ask it? You are writhing in your illogic. If you want to be condescending, at least do not embarass yourself – that is, what I think, is meant by obciach.
I am not intent to alienate non-Christians (or Christians). What they believe in or not is of little interest to me. And your statement is meaningless. What I am intent on is to prevent you from asserting who is part of my family. As I wrote, my house, my rules. You do not get to decide otherwise. I do not invite myself into the Irish family or the Armenian family or the Jewish family and I certainly do not have the chutzpah of going around and telling others who CAN be part of THEIR family. Your attitudes are precisely the kind of thinking that will result in blood flowing on the streets. You just can’t help yourself… can you?
But fine if in order to keep my family house I have to “alienate” you, then go ahead feel alienated. Just get out of my house first.
“And is there such a thing as pure Polish blood which goes all the way back to Boleslaw Chrobry and your mythical Lech? I very much doubt it.”
Yes, well if you “very much doubt it” then it must be true. Nor did I use the word “pure” – that is your invention in order probably to create a strawman argument (see response above about “mixed” children).
“Your previous assertion that morality is not in question – only blood – is seriously flawed (to put it politely – others have been far less charitable). What is patriotism based on if NOT morality?”
You are obviously unfamiliar with words and their meanings. (BTW I feel like I am serving as a remedial tutor to a whole bunch of Brits – doesn’t quite create an endorsement for your educational system, ya know). According to you “patriotism” is about morals… You may try to break the word down a bit – you will note that the word is not Moralism or Democratism or Popperism or IwouldliketobePolishism but Patrio-tism. Aka the love of OJCZYzna or VATERland or RODina. But, hey,maybe you’re from an in-vitro procedure so all of this is hard to understand.
If you don’t get it how you’ve just embarassed yourself, go back and read again – till that bulb (or, in your case, probably a wick) lights up. The Earth is supposed to be here for a few more billions of years so you still have time to get it. I give you 50-50 odds (that’s cause of my innate optimism).
I do not know Anders’ background. If he had no Polish ancestors then, of course, he was not Polish. German generals often served as free agents. Look at Eisenhower (or should we say Eisenhauer). That does not make him in any way a bad person – by all accounts he was a lovely man.
Will you not reach your goals in life if you are not also accepted (apparently by me) as Polish? Does this conversation somehow serve to diminish your self-worth? If so I am sorry. Given that anyone apparently can be British, I could see how you might be looking to become a part of a more exclusive tribe. Leftists tend to first *** up their own countries before, like locust, they move on to another destination.
Ok, so according to your territorial nationality theory Wallach’s parents were Polish. But why? Poland did not exist at the time. So what then makes THEM Polish? Nothing, other than they may have spent some time in the Pale of Settlement. Furthermore, you are disengenous, were Wallach not a great celebrity and a fantastic character actor Shcnepf would not have brought his parents into the conversation. So we have the Polish ambassador writing a CYA piece to deal with his boss’ racist (and other) remarks (not the first incidentally) and invoking the parents of a famous guy who was born in the Bronx (I think). Is that all we have?
Can you explain?
Actually, forget all that – just answer this:
of all the names you mention upfront why did they, as you put it, “happen to be Jewish”? What makes them Jewish?
Can I be a Protestant that “just happens” to be Catholic? (BTW what’s with all the foxman-speak? do you also think the Warner Bros. were Polish? There is a great book about that – Hollywood’s War on Poland)
Just because the United (Ha!) Kingdom and its Brits have foregone all blood ties and decided to continue into the future (or rather sunset) as a legal fiction (your nick is quite appropriate here) of a community, does not mean that the rest of us would love to follow the same path.
Again, what makes them Jewish?
“Your house, your rules”? What makes you think you’re the sole proprietor or only resident? And if you don’t know anything about Anders, then that only proves you’re not Polish anyway.
I didn’t say I didn’t know “anything” about Anders. I said, I had not researched his parentage. If his family was always non-Polish then he could not be Polish. If it were otherwise, then he would be Polish.
So please do not put words in my mouth – it’s bad enough to see that you are having trouble with words in your own mouth.
Anders was one of the most famous Polish generals of the Second World War. Anyone who calls him a German doesn’t know anything about him. Omnibus is right. You are wrong.
Keep calm and breathe.
Anders, based on the information provided, was German. I did not say that he was a bad guy, I did not say that he was a Nazi, I did not call him a Prussian goosestepper. He obviously was a German who was also a general in the Polish state’s army. That he was famous, or killed lots of Germans or led thousands of Poles (and others) out of the Soviets is absolutely irrelevant to the question of his ethnicity. He was great for Poland – ok? Happy?
Or put like someone else likes, he was a general in the Polish army who “just happened to be German”.
Why is that you think that is a problem? Shall we debate Maczek, Haller, Berling, etc? How about Canaris or Mannstein?
Will you tell me how Bathory, Hedvig, Jagielo, Lelewel also “deserve to be” Polish?
Since you are obviously not Polish, then you have no good reason to comment on Polish matters and anything else you might say on these pages can be safely ignored.
Go ahead ignore it. i didn’t ask you to respond.
(this, of course, raises a question as to whether this portal is only for “Polish” people or do others, i.e., Polish people, not have “good reason” to comment and can be “ignored” (whether safely or not))
@ Czarniecki
The problem is, this isn’t just any old ranting. We have potential defamation of people whose relatives are very much alive.
Co tu sie zastanawiac, bracia? Precz z takim i koniec.
Warto przeczytac tez, co pisze wyzej von der Vogelweide do Blutarskiego – ta szelma sie roznie podpisuje. Radzilbym nic nie miec z nim do czynienia. Jesli chodzi o mnie, jestem z Polskiego pochodzenia (niestety nawalily mnie w tej chwili Polskie czcionki). Ten facet gotow jest jeszcze powiedziec ze Fieldorf tez byl Niemcem. Tu nalezy sie liczyc z mozliwoscia sprawy sadowej.
You don’t go around describing someone of the stature of Anders as a ‘German’ even if his family was of German descent. He was born in Poland, was one of the greatest Polish patriots and if you don’t understand how insulting it is to call him anything other than Polish, then you have no business on this space.
I would retire if I were you before you say something even more offensive and quite possibly libellous.
I didn’t realize that calling someone German is considered libellous in Poland.
But I can see that where referring to non-Poles by their tribal names is banned by law, it would be logical to include the Germans in that pile too – after all, that way Poles won’t notice who their leaders are or, if they notice, they will notice what happens to those who point that out.
“libellous…” I am sensing that your real name is Free Speech Crusader Michnik
“We have potential defamation of people whose relatives are very much alive.”
Himmler’s family is still alive too – do you expect them suing soon?
“jestem z Polskiego pochodzenia” – I rest my case (must be the “czcionki”).
And I’m sensing this could be a Dmowski supporter from Chicago. Did you enjoy the Pythons? How long you going to keep this going? You’ll have to pay extra if the argument goes over five minutes…
How long you going to keep this going?
“How long ARE you going to be keep this going?” Herr Wasserpolack
And why bring Himmler into this? WTF are you talking about?
scratch the “be”… It’s late and I am tired. Fighting for Poland takes a lot out of me. The babboons are everywhere.
I do not expect someone who uses a Calvinist Lithuanian nick to understand.
Peculiar way of fighting for Poland if all you do is hurl insults at fellow Poles. Try keeping a civil tongue in your head and you might get people to listen to whatever you have to say.
I’m very disappointed in you if you are who I think you are. When you are constrained by using your real name, then you can sound quite reasonable. Here, you come across as a snide, bigoted, sarcastic extremist who hints darkly at “blood in the streets”. That was the kind of language, I’m sure you remember, used by a certain E. Powell.
And, in answer to your question about how long I mean to go on, I was rather hoping the discussion would fizzle out a little while ago, but you weighed in with your sarcastic comments about Elvis’s nephew. I’m quite prepared to go on for as long as it takes or until the KP decide to pull the plug.
That wasn’t my question. It was your question. Dementia too?
I was merely commenting on your faulty English grammar.
Why do you think you are my fellow Pole??? Again, what difference does it make – do I care who you are?
Besides, you do not sound like a Pole – you sound like a leftist nutcase. Poles do not frequent this place – only MI6 personnel, errr… British students (is Scotland free yet?)
I wish I could likewise say that I am very disappointed with you but unfortunately my expectations were so low that any disappointment is necessarily very limited (though there is some, of course).
If B-g lets us, soon all Poles will sound like me and all leftists will end up in the ashheap [of history].
BTW – Is Sikorski still FM? Someone should remind him that Poland for Everyone necessarily means Poland for Putin too – but now the bigot wants to keep the Russkis out it seems – how ironic – if Benedict Arnold’s treatment at the hands of the sponsors of this site is any indication, things are unlikely to get better
ps looking at what’s happening in Britain, I would not bring about Powell now – to say that he was right (as any dolt could have seen) would be an understatement.
ps2 fellow Poles do not argue for increasing Poland’s diversity – Smolars, Michniks and other scum do – you will be known by the ideological company you keep
I am actually sorry that I thought for a minute you might be a certain right-wing, Dmowski-supporting commentator. My apologies to him. His views may be right-wing, but his arguments are always cogent. I have never known him to be rude.
If I were any of the people you named above, I would consider the epithet “scum” to be libellous.
You are clearly not tired enough to continue to be obnoxious and abusive.
Correction: what I called an epithet above is actually a noun. And a pretty offensive one, too.
You think you’re fit to correct my grammar? Well, rearrange the following phrase then: straws at you clutching are.
May God prevent all Poles sounding like you.
Who is B-g?
And, no, even if you are a Pole, you’re no fellow of mine.
Is “B-g” by any chance supposed to be “Bog”? (“God” in Polish, of course, but the ‘o’ should have an acute – not having access to Polish type can be a problem)
If it is the above, then what makes you so pious here when you have previously been so offensive about Christ?
@ KP – is this beginning to resemble the Pythons’ argument sketch?
And now for something completely different. Max will apologise to everyone he has offended.
I thought you were going to drop this. You know you won’t get an apology out of him so what’s the point of even joking about it? And @ Czarnecki – I can think of plenty of phrases for him to rearrange but this is getting boring.
You are absolutely right and I must try harder. I will do my utmost to keep my distance from this person. My apologies to the KP.
In mitigation, your honour, may I plead a red mist descending every time I read one of his particularly nasty remarks? I realise this may be the wrong expression to use when someone sees leftist conspiracies all round.
Regards from the man formerly on the Clapham omnibus but now enjoying a pint at The Ranter’s Return.
We (Poles) do not spell out the name of B-g out of reverence. Nor is alleged Josh of Bethlehem a deity. If you were Polish, you would have known that. There is no inconsistency. Except perhaps for a Monty Python fan who also claims to defend Christianity.
“And, no, even if you are a Pole, you’re no fellow of mine.” Correct, because you are not a Pole as we have repeatedly established now
What’s with the apologies/references to KP? When you got schooled in school did you also run crying to the teacher? If you have anything substantive to say, say it, otherwise go away
Truth, as someone pointed out earlier, tends to be a defense to libel although you may be right in as much as “scum” so understates the villanous quality of the characters in question that use of such a word may serve to unduly excuse them and their behaviours.
Are Chodkiewicz and Czarnecki your real names? I didn’t know the membership here was so aristocratic (if not Polish). How many peasants did you whip today, oh great [moral] patriots?
Since all you have managed to gather insults and you have failed to address any of my points, feel free to run along now and sulk
I am leaving. Now.
Do you mind? I’m trying to finish my pint in peace here.
All I will say is that if ever you find yourself up before the beak, Max/Anatol/Arno etc, then you may certainly not count on me as a character witness.
great, another alcoholic – that might explain your lack of coherence
you can’t even answer one question…
Again, what makes them Jewish?
Jewish identity is a complex subject and not something I feel qualified to comment on, not being Jewish myself. But it’s fairly obvious that you can be both Polish and Jewish at the same time, just as you can be both Jewish and English or Jewish and French. Where’s the difficulty?
And I note you haven’t denied my claim that you’re not Polish. What makes you qualified to comment on Polish questions in the first place if you’re not Polish?
Look up Berek Joselewicz on Wiki. Anyone who spills blood for the Polish cause deserves to be honoured as a Pole.
“deserves” ???
Do Arabs/Druze who fight in the IDF “deserve” to be honoured as Jews? Or is that another subject in the long line of subjects that you are not “qualified” to opine on?
BTW must you actually spill blood? Or are internal injuries sufficient? And what makes a cause “Polish”?
“Jewish identity is a complex subject and not something I feel qualified to comment on, not being Jewish myself. But it’s fairly obvious that you can be both Polish and Jewish at the same time, just as you can be both Jewish and English or Jewish and French.”
I am confused now. So you are NOT qualified to comment on who is Jewish BUT you ARE qualified to comment on who is Polish?
“not being Jewish myself” – must one be Jewish to determine who is Jewish? And are you Polish to be able to comment on who is Polish? Or are different standards applicable somehow to Jews and Poles? If so, why?
Or is it the case that Polish identity is NOT a “complex” subject?
“But it’s fairly obvious that you can be both Polish and Jewish at the same time, just as you can be both Jewish and English or Jewish and French.”
So A) you don’t know who is Jewish BUT B) it’s “fairly obvious” that whoever that may be (presumably as determined by other Jewish people – whoever they may be – you, after all, don’t know/are not qualified to determine that) CAN also be Polish?
Got it. It’s refreshing to read something on the Internet that makes so much sense.
ps if you are not qualified, you shouldn’t comment
BTW look up the words “cop out” “coyness” and, finally, “lame”
I answered your question. How about answering mine? Are you Polish?
And if you’re not, which seems likely, since you were careful to avoid the question before, then what are you doing commenting on Polish issues?
And if you have to ask “what makes a cause Polish?” then that’s only another indication that you aren’t Polish. Would you care to provide evidence to prove me wrong?
Czekam
Leave him to fester, mate. He’s a disgrace to wherever he comes from.
Sound advice. I won’t argue with that. Cheers.
Logic hurts, huh?
I ask to see whether you know. But obviously, you don’t. You use words you do not understand.
“I answered your question.”
Not true. You said you were unable to answer it. Read your own response again.
Again, what makes them Jewish?
What difference does my ethnicity make to my arguments/questions? You can’t take on the arguments so you are planning to go for some ad hominems?
Leaving aside the incredible rudeness of Max/Arno, some of the points he raises need to be challenged:
1. His very first claim (alongside his applauding the success of the far-right Front Nationale), that Poland’s religion is that of “the old gods”, is baseless. How can such a claim be true if Poland is 95% Catholic?
2. His assertion that the stability of the state is threatened by diversity is equally baseless. Nowhere has any reputable historian said as much. On the contrary, it was strengthened by such diversity. As the above article points out, Poland largely avoided religious wars (the Thirty Years’ War, for example) for this very reason.
3. The Catholic Church and anti-Semitism. If the Catholic Church in Poland was at any time in its history officially anti-Semitic, then this should be balanced against the number of priests and nuns who helped and sheltered Jews from the Nazis during WWII.
4. The ‘counter-factual scenario’ in which Jews could have been the majority and Catholics the minority threatened with annihilation is something about which it is futile to speculate. Such a scenario is the stuff of ‘alternative history’.
5. Max talks about Poland as “my country”. Nowhere does he say that he is actually from Poland. Although he seems to understand the odd word or phrase in Polish, nowhere does he provide any evidence of having at least a working knowledge of the language. Therefore, if he doesn’t know the language, how can Poland be his country? But supposing that he is actually of Polish descent, then unless he actually lives there, how can he call Poland “his country”?
6. According to his logic, only Native Americans (people who used to be called Red Indians) would be the onl people entitled to be called ‘Americans’, just as only Native Australians (people who used to be called Aborigines) would be entitled to be called ‘Australians’. If you go back far enough, you will discover that everyone is originally from somewhere else. If a Scottish family, for example, came to Poland in the 17th century, married their sons and daughters only to other Scottish people, yet continued to live in Poland up until the present day, and spoke Polish; fought for Poland in the 1794, 1831 and 1863 insurrections, fought in the ranks of the Legiony in WWI, alongside the Second Corps of Anders at Monte Cassino in WWII, then why should they not be called Polish? Simply because there is no Polish blood running through their veins? My definition of what makes for Polish identity is different from that of Max/Arno.
7. To describe me or Elvis or anyone who argues the above as “anti-Polish” is untrue, apart from being offensive.
8. For someone who claims to revere ‘B-g’, his description of Jesus Christ as “some nutcase from the Middle East” is disrespectful, to put it mildly.
9. The rant at comment #10 (referred to rather caustically by Tuco Ramirez as ‘a pile of bat guano’), gets to the crux of Max’s thinking. He sees no difference between traitors to Poland and loyal Poles, claiming that “we are not debating the morality of anything here”. But, my question here would be: what is Polish identity based on if not morality? Blood alone does not make a patriotic Pole.
10. Even if Max/Arno/Anatol etc is a resident of Poland (which seems unlikely), then what gives him the right to say that Poland is “his house” and everyone should abide by “his rules”? By his own admission, he is not of the 95%. How many other Polish people’s views does he represent? My guess would be very few.
11. Like the Man (formerly) on the Clapham Omnibus, I would rather leave the question of Jewish identity to be commented on by someone who is actually Jewish, but I would not hesitate to say that Polish identity is just as complex, comprising as it does of both ethnic and religious elements, which is why articles such as the one above are welcome and which is why reducing Polish identity to a question of ‘blood’ is simplistic and thoroughly unhelpful.
I see you need to keep this going… (should I expect Sienkiewicz goons at the door?)
1. Poland is 95% Catholic because that is what 1000 years of brainwashing has done to Polish people. That said, doctrinally, Polish Catholicism is largely shallow. As even leftists claim, it never had to justify itself ideologically. Whenever challenged it usually just eliminated the opposition. Much as you would like to do. Further, much of the Catholic (and indeed Christian) tradition is not Catholic (or Christian) at all and is simply a reflection of previous “pagan” beliefs. Beliefs that we know continued (and some continue to this day) for hundreds of years after the official “conversion” of the leadership. A similar “conversion” occurred in many other cultures – e.g., amongst the Khazars where the leadership became Jewish but the majority of the population remained Muslim, Christian and animist. That conversion would probably have eventually been spread to the lower classes except for the fact that the Khazars were wiped out by the Russians.
2. Your comment on “strength through diversity” is so ridiculous that it does not merit a response. I will only point to the Khmelnitsky uprising, the Cracow incident during Lokietek’s time, the Torun fighting in the 1700s, etc.
Do you honestly believe that if Ukraine were populated by Polish Catholics, the Russian tsars would have found it just as easy to rip it out of the Commonwealth? Why were the Nazis so popular in Danzig? Perhaps because 90% of the population was German before the war? And why was it German? Because it was not polonized. And why was it not polonized? Because of the special privileges that Polish kings granted the Danzigers (and Thorners and others). Just like they granted special privileges to Jews, etc.
Once the state stopped reflecting the ethnic unity of the people, there was nothing keeping the state in place except for the state itself – a rather haphazard geographical creature, that was inevitably dismembered. It is also worth pointing out that two of the dismemberers sooner or later styled themselves as UNI-national states – the one that did not – Austria – eventually fell into pieces itself, precisely based on ethnic divisions.
The suggestion that the 30 years’ war did not come to Poland because of its diversity is absurd. For one thing there were plenty of other wars that Poland fought during that time and the preoccupation with those wars meant a lack of desire to fight a two front war on the western frontier as well.
3. There are no doubt those that would claim that the Catholic Church is anti-semtitic. And there is an inherent tension between Christianity and Judaism that is self evident. However, I never said that the Catholic Church was “officially” anti-semitic (though you may want to read some things that even your late, great Wyszynski wrote about “the Jews” or Kolbe for that matter). I believe the former commenter only said that the Germans are to blame for the lack of Jews in Poland as an attempt at showing irony given the German comments. The response (I know you ascribe everything to me), I believe, was simply that the attitudes present were there before the Germans did any killing. That’s all.
4. I agree though, I do not think that counterfactual scenario was the basis of any dispute – merely an observation.
5. Again, I am not sure what my ethnicity has to do with any of the argument? Poland was given by B-g to all Poles for Eternity. That is where the fathers and mothers of Poles are buried. In addition, it is an insurance policy for all Poles, everywhere, that should they be attacked or mistreated, they will always have a homeland to come back to. A Poland without Poles is an abstract, haphazard and unnecessary creation. You could divide the geography of the country in a million other, more efficient ways. Similarly, the existence of a Polish state as a goal in and of itself is pointless. The latter is also apparent in the Polish “elites” trying to surrender the state’s sovereignty to the EU so you should find no argument with that.
6. “If you go back far enough, you will discover that everyone is originally from somewhere else”. First of all, that is not true (at least not true for Africans from Africa). Second, no one denies that there have been migrations in the past (or conquests). But so what? When the Poles arrived in Poland, the country was largely empty – the Celts were gone, the residual Germans (who were no more than passers by from Scandinavia) were absorbed and assimilated. The first polity that was established was Polish (or Czech if you will – either way Slavic).
As to your statement about Scots, you are right that is what I am saying.
However, you should also ask yourself, how it would be possible for a Scot to come to Poland and only marry other Scots – for generations… without making an effort (and a very big one) NOT to marry Poles? So, the cry-me-a-river scenario you present is a) preposterous and b) if true then one to which no person can be sympathetic.
7. You are worse than anti-Polish. You are someone who wants to insinuate himself to become Polish. By your logic, there could be a Polish polity that is run entirely by non-Poles – or rather you would only relabel them as Poles and the underlings would have to not notice who their leaders are. If the underlings revolved then they would be called, uncouth, stupid, ignorant, bigoted, etc. That is not just subjugation but actually STEALING an identiy – at best it is a theft of the intellectual and cultural property of the Polish nation.
I assume that you would be fine with the South African government being run all by whites? So long as the whites called themselves “black” Africans and spoke the local languages? And do not hide behind SAfrican history – in principle, you would have no problem with the foregoing scenario.
8. I revere the Polish B-g. I do not revere joshua. To revere a foreign god would be offensive to my ancestors.
The fact that there are people who revere him and think he was a god of sorts is irrelevant. Josh undertook on himself to be a prophet (all that stuff about “his father” etc). The local priesthood clearly thought that he was a nutcase and the Roman authorities thought he was dangerous. An ancient version of David Koresh.
9. “what is Polish identity based on if not morality?”
I already answered that – blood
“Blood alone does not make a patriotic Pole.”
No, but it does make A POLE and that is ALL I was stating. Again, live with it.
10. Since Poland was given to Poles as per above by B-g that is sufficient to answer your question about my rights. Who currently “lives” in Poland is irrelevant – for 50 years soldiers of the Red Army lived in Poland, before that it was the Germans, before that there were Mongols, Tatars, etc.
They all pass – as will you.
11. On the contrary, Jewish law has very specific descriptions about who is Jewish. What’s more all of them are based on… blood. Whether it is the mother’s blood or the blood of either parent does not matter since blood seems to be a necessary ingredient. Now you may point to conversions, etc, but as I hope you will readily admit, a nonproselytizing people are hardly ones that refill themselves with conversions.
Of course, in one way the above is irrelevant to Polishness. if one’s grandparent is Polish then the grandchild is Polish whether or not the other 3 are Jewish (or whatever). In that sense you could get someone who is considered as a) Polish – by Poles and b) as Jewish – by some/all Jews. However, from a Polish perspective, the affiliation asserted by non-Poles is completely irrelevant as such a person is considered fully Polish.
And if he/she acts agains the interests of his/her Polish community, that person is a traitor (but a Pole nonetheless).
BTW if you want to call some of the people you mentioned “honorary Poles”, I do not think anyone has a problem with that. Poles have many friends (thankfully) and should be happy with that. That does not mean however that “honorary Poles” and other non-Poles should outnumber Poles in Poland.
So you get your Rubinstein, Hemar, Anders or, for that matter more recently, Anne Applebaum (whose children are Polish) all as honorary Poles. Happy? I assume not.
Anders an “honorary Pole”?
What a jaw-droppingly stupid thing to say.
But haven’t we been here before ? You’re going round in circles, Anatol/Max/Arno.
I am glad you’ve reverted to your true colors – the colors of name-calling.
If I am going in circles, forgive me – I should understand, that someone who does not get the obvious the first time, won’t get it the second time either.
run along now and play in your mud while you can – the Russians are coming and they probably don’t like Anders worshippers.
Tell me something, Max, out of interest. Just how Polish are you if you can insult someone like Anders without a second thought? Are you entitled to vote in Poland, for instance? And don’t give me the story about your ancient gods…
“Just how Polish are you” – in my book you are either Polish or not – unlike you, I do not categorize people as being 46% Polish or 82% Polish, etc.
Please also do not insult my religion
in any event, if you don’t know who I am, then maybe your best course would be to tread lightly?
I asked you before (point 10) about what gives you the right to call Poland “your house”. You replied that your ancient god gave you that right. Personally I may or may not believe in your ancient god – (and I don’t go around insulting other peoples’ religions) – but I’m merely pointing out that invoking him is not an answer to my question.
And you didn’t actually answer the question immediately above, did you, Max? Just as you only answered some of the points I raised but evaded others.
Say, for the sake of argument, you’re an American of Polish descent. If that’s the case, then of course there is no reason why you shouldn’t be commenting on Polish issues here or anywhere else. But unless you’re actually a citizen of today’s Poland, then it’s a bit of a stretch for you to be describing the old Rzeczpospolita as “your country”, isn’t it? Do you live there, Max? Are you a Polish taxpayer? Exactly how are you contributing to the nation’s welfare? Anyone can be critical of the government. Are you in a position to do anything about it or are you just hoping to persuade people from the sidelines to ditch their “elites”? But who’s listening to you, Max? You said yourself that Polish people don’t read these comments. Is it just me, Elvis, Otter, Tuco and the Man on the Clapham Omnibus? (And maybe his dog?)
Tell you what, Max/Arno/Anatol/Dawid/Jan/Pawel or whatever your real name might be, let me explain a bit about how I feel about General Wladyslaw Anders. I wouldn’t go as far as to say I worship him, but the fact is, if it hadn’t been for him, I wouldn’t be here today, arguing with you. To the generation of my parents he was the equivalent of Moses for the Israelites. Capiche?
Anyway, enough already. I have a feeling the good people at the KP are probably getting mightily fed up with all this.
I don’t wish you ill, Max. I only wish you a sense of humour.
Perhaps humour is asking too much. Just a sense of humanity would do.
you like goading me, huh? why do you think, I do not live in Poland?
here is something for you, from the Federalist [John Jay]:
“Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people — a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs … “ [Americans are a] “band of brethren, united to each other by the strongest ties.”
My audience is not Poles – it is “people” like you.
if you continue on your path, you will NEVER be left alone in Poland or elsewhere – I pray that it does not come to violence.
now go pay your taxes – that is, after all, the highest expression of patriotism for schmucks like you
I answered your 11 questions.
Would you be so kind and answer my 1 question – what makes these people “who happen to be Jewish”, Jewish?
(the answer is above if you want a cheat sheet)
If you know the answer, then why keep asking the question?
Not being of Polish descent nor a Poland resident, I was reading out of a desire to educate myself on the religious history of Poland as I watch a show on television to check on its accurate reflection of the times.
I never understand the need for people to verbally attack someone on any post. I respect the need to correct errors, to share opinions, and discuss similarities and differences.
There is a philosophical saying – Those who see the variety and not the unity wander on from death to death. This post if anything, displays unity among you.